Tag Archives: Deconversion

September 29, 2011 · 9:00 am

The Deconversion Guide: Illness and Death

Part four of the series. Click here for part three.

Today’s topic: chronic illness and death.

As I don’t have a chronic illness I’ve asked a few blogging friends for advice.  A little later on in this post I’ll talk about my experiences as a family member of someone with longterm health problems.

Chronic Illness

I asked Daphne Purpus, Bruce Gerencser and Trey Smith three questions. This is what they had to say:

Would you be willing to share your experiences with this [how Christians respond to your illness]?

Daphne:

I was having cataract surgery (2 different times with 2 eyes since they won’t do both at once) and the place my eye doctor wanted me to go to is first rate, but run by Seventh Day Adventists… As I am sitting in the chair and the surgery is about to proceed, the surgeon asks if I mind if he prays for this surgery.

Ok, now you have me over a barrel. Can I say no? If I do will that affect his abilities, consciously or not? I felt forced into saying it was ok, and in each case they put their hands on my head and went through a fairly lengthy audible prayer.

Bruce:

The last church I attended was a local church in Ney. My family and I attended this church for many months before we stopped in November in 2008.  I considered the pastor a friend and the church was very friendly towards me. (of course I was not a declared atheist at the time) From November 2008 til today I have not spoken to one person from the church besides the pastor and I have not talked to him since March of 2009. No care. No concern. If I wasn’t willing to attend their church there was no need to bother with me. (even though I had and continue to have great physical needs).

Trey:

Surprisingly, I don’t run into the issue very often.  Most members of my family are agnostic or atheist, so we rarely get into religious discussions at all!

What do you say when Christians offer to pray for you or say that their god can heal you?

Daphne:

 One doesn’t need a personal deity to subscribe to the idea that sending positive energies out into the world will have a positive effect…That being said, if someone says something like I know my god will heal you, then I start to baulk. The whole idea of prayer healing is a philosophical quagmire and even in my orthodox Lutheran days, I had problems with that. Why does god heal one person but not another. Is one more deserving?

Bruce:

Generally, if a Christian offers to pray for me I thank them and say nothing. I know they mean well and little is gained by entering into a debate with them about God or the efficacy of prayer. If a Christian asks to pray for me right at the moment were are talking I ask them them not to. It is one thing if they want to pray for me privately but I find people praying for me in my preserve to be offensive.

Trey:

From time to time, evangelists come knocking on my front door.  If it is in one of those periods in which I’m using my cane, I have been asked why and I tell them about my condition.  That’s when I get the “I’ll/We’ll pray from you” gambit.  My typical response is “If it makes YOU feel better, go for it.  It won’t make me any better, but at least you’ll feel better and isn’t that what praying for others is all about anyway?

What do you wish they would say or do instead?

Bruce:

I understand that many Christians feel a need to pray for the sick and I certainly don’t want them to stop doing so. That said, I would prefer that Christians try and help me rather than pray for me. The easiest words to say as a Christian is “I will pray for you.” It is much harder to enter into a person’s life and embrace them as a fellow human being…What I need is help when life is overwhelming or when I face difficult physical obstacles.

Trey:

Maybe, “gosh, that’s too bad” or “Hope you get to feeling a tad bit better in the coming days.”  I mean, there really isn’t too much a person can say.  It is what it is.

Trey, Bruce, Daphne – thank you so much for participating!

My Family’s Story

My sister-in-law has a neurological disorder that has yet to be officially diagnosed along with a few other health problems. Last year she suddenly became extremely ill, was hospitalized for a few weeks and didn’t fully recover for months.

It was terrifying. What is even scarier is not knowing what the future holds – will her health continue to slowly deteriorate? Will her symptoms eventually stabilize? Will she continue to be able to attend school and work? We just don’t know.

These are things I rarely discuss for a few reasons: it feels weird and invasive to talk about someone else’s health problems in such detail, there are so many unknowns in her future, I only recently learned more information about her and it’s hard enough to have a loved one suffer as is. The last thing I need is for this to be used as a witnessing opportunity.

A final link before I end this very long post: Grief Beyond Belief is an online support group for non-theists who have recently lost a loved one. It’s a truly excellent resource! I haven’t lost any friends or family members since deconverting but I’ll often read what Grief Beyond Belief has to say in order to prepare for that inevitable day.

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September 15, 2011 · 9:00 am

Passing Through

Craig Hart and I share remarkably similar backgrounds. We were both preacher’s kids who grew up in conservative homes and churches, home schooled for several years each, and devout Christians who eventually questioned more and more of what we had been taught.

Eventually both of us switched to other beliefs. Agnosticism for me, Energetic Universalism for Craig.

Everyone has a story. One of my favourite things to do is to listen to what it is someone believes, why they believe it, and most importantly what happened in their lives to lead them to those beliefs.

The best way I know to understand where someone is headed or why they believe what they do is to listen to these stories.

Passing Through: An Ex-Fundamentalists Pursuit of Personal Spirituality is divided into four sections. The first, by far my favourite, talks about how Craig’s experiences as a child and young adult shaped what he now believes. The church he grew up in was extremely strict – for example, women wore dresses but were forbidden from wearing makeup or jewelry and no one was allowed to watch movies. At 17 Craig goes off to Bible College at the same time that he seriously begins questioning his faith.

If only this section could have lasted longer. Craig’s bittersweet stories really resonated with me. Too often we only hear from the extremes – people who love everything about their religious tradition or those who deconverted and are still angry.

Part two is a philosophical discussion: what is religion? Why does it have such a powerful hold on people? What are the benefits of struggling with your beliefs? Why do people believe in God?

It’s easier for me to discuss philosophy in person because certain words or phrases can be interpreted in radically different ways depending on your tone of voice and body language at the time. If you read this book keep in mind that Craig doesn’t defines terms like religion and fundamentalism in traditional ways. He uses these words to describe how someone behaves or thinks, not necessarily what they do or believe.

The third section discusses issues like biblical inerrancy and infallibility. (Basically, are there errors in the Bible? Is the Bible actually the word of God? If so, how do we know these things to be true?) To be honest I find these debates boring whether the holy book in question is the Bible, Torah, Koran or some other text.

This section is a good introduction for anyone who has never studied or thought about these questions though. The arguments are easy to follow and the examples used are thought-provoking.

The final part of the book talks about how to live in a society where many others disagree with you and describes what Craig means when he says that he’s an Energetic Universalist. I definitely agree with Craig’s belief that fundamentalism is in no way limited to one particular religion or group – it’s found anywhere that someone settles into or says, “I don’t need to listen to or respect you because I have all of the answers already.”

It was also refreshing to read thoughts on spirituality from someone who genuinely respects non-theists. Too often religious inclusion is really only intended for those who believe in at least one god.

This book would be a good fit for anyone interested in taking a second look at their beliefs, Christian or otherwise.

Full disclosure: I received a free copy of this book from Craig to review.

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September 5, 2011 · 9:00 am

The Deconversion Guide: Prayer

Part three of my series on life after faith. Click here for part two.

Today’s topic: Prayer.

How do you respond to prayer requests? What about praying before a meal? Is it polite to ask a well-meaning friend or family member not to pray for you?

Let’s talk about these one at a time.

Prayer Requests

Someone you care about is going through a hard time. At the end of their email or Facebook post they ask everyone to pray.

How should we respond to this? It seems dishonest to say, “yes! I’ll pray for you” if you don’t pray or believe in any gods (although getting out of that habit was really tough for me).

What is someone really asking for when they post a prayer request? Finding comfort in their religious beliefs is definitely a major part of it but I think there’s also a social aspect.

Most of the time friends and family don’t begin and end their side of the conversation with prayer. Advice or practical assistance – babysitting, bringing over a hot meal, helping with chores or errands that cannot be postponed- are usually offered as well.

Navigating the religious angle of it can be really awkward but anyone can offer to help in other ways.

Mealtime

This is probably one of the most common reasons that non-theists become a captive audience to prayer. It can also be something that is more difficult to opt out of discreetly if you are uncomfortable participating.

Usually I’m happy to sit quietly while others pray.  A notable exception to this are prayers like this:

Thank you, God, for this food. We love you so much. Please teach us how to serve you better for the rest of our lives. Amen.

because they assumes a relationship that at least one of us doesn’t actually have with the speaker’s god. Your mileage may vary but I’m not ethically comfortable being included in someone else’s relationship with their god.

Promises are also something I take extremely seriously. If I say I’ll be somewhere or do something I’m going to be or do it. The last time I broke a promise was last fall when a nasty bout of the flu left me too weak to do what I had agreed to do…and I still felt guilty for staying home that night. 🙂

So what are your options when you’re in a situation where the prayer before the meal becomes uncomfortable?

You could talk to the prayer leader about it. I wouldn’t recommend this in 99% of cases, though, especially if the meal is hosted by the person who will be praying. It’s far too easy for these things to be blown out of proportion.

In my experience people cannot be forced to understand how someone outside of their beliefs sees certain things. If it comes up in conversation I’ll share my thoughts but I haven’t seen much good come out of bringing it up personally.

Another options is to offer to host. Anyone who visits my house is welcome to pray silently or in a small group before the meal begins.

Also consider meeting at neutral locations like a restaurant or park. The more casual the event the less likely that public prayers of any kind will take place and almost everyone loves a picnic or barbecue!

Hard Times

I’ll cover this in depth in an upcoming post but one of the other most common reasons for a Christian to mention praying for you is when something bad happens. Someone dies, loses a job, is diagnosed with a terminal illness.

Some non-theists do not find this a comfort at all. I completely understand why it would bother someone. Maybe I’m a bad Agnostic ( 😉 )  but I would only find this personally offensive if it was followed up with any hint of pressure to join that person’s religion or talk to his or her spiritual advisor.

Saying “thanks” and then switching the topic is one of my favourite ways to respond to this sort of thing.

 Intent

Basically it all comes down to the intentions of the person offering or asking for prayer.

Does he or she want to convert you?

Is bringing up prayer a passive agressive act for this individual?

Is he trying to offer comfort?

Is she expressing sincerely held religious views?

Is prayer simply a habit for this individual?

There are many Christians in my life who would never cross that line. They sincerely respect my beliefs and are given a great deal of leeway when it come to these things.

Sometimes there are those who choose less respectful approaches. As I’ve mentioned in this series before, relationship history matters. You are the expert in figuring out what is happening with your friends and family.

Non-theists, theists, and everyone in-between: what have been your experiences with this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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August 22, 2011 · 9:00 am

The Deconversion Guide: Telling People

Welcome to part two of the deconversion guide. Click here for the last entry. 

The map on the left shows the percentage of religious believers in North America. The darker the state or province, the higher the percentage. (Picture by Some Thing.)

Today’s topic: How do you decide when (or whether!) to tell others about your deconversion?

Only you can decide what is best for your life but here is some food for thought along the way.

Is it safe to tell? Sometimes it’s a very bad idea to reveal what you actually believe. There are communities where non-theists lose jobs, marriages, homes, custody of their children or friendships because of prejudice against us. The best thing to do may very well be to keep it quiet for now (or forever).

If this is what you need to do, build friendships with other non-theists if at all possible. The Internet is a wonderful tool for connecting with people who know exactly what you’re going through.

Who needs to know? This doesn’t have to be an either/or decision. You might be comfortable telling close friends but not your extended family or vice versa. There are still a few people in my life who don’t know I’m agnostic, believe it or not!

 Be careful about assumptions.  As you’re deciding whom to tell remember to give people the benefit of the doubt. A Christian friend of mine was hurt when she discovered my deconversion through other sources. I had assumed she would have a problem with it (she didn’t) and never got around to telling her the truth.

That was a mistake.

History repeats.  Generally people who are critical or accepting of you in one area (politics, religion, favourite flavour of ice cream…) will carry that behaviour over to other areas. The friend I mentioned earlier has always been gracious about our differences, large and small. I should have trusted her more.

This isn’t a perfect test, of course, but it can give you a good indication of how someone might respond to your deconversion.

Relationships can change opinions. It’s easy to hate or misunderstand an idea. It’s harder, although certainly not impossible, to carry those feelings over to a flesh and blood person especially when he or she also happens to be your good friend, cousin, neighbour, coworker, child.

No, this doesn’t mean that everyone is guaranteed to be ok with your deconversion. There will always be people who reject friends or family members who don’t share their beliefs.

But sometimes knowing and loving someone whom is part of a misunderstood group softens even the most deeply-held prejudices.

Respond

Non-theists, how do you decide when and who to tell about your beliefs?

Theists, do you have any friends or family members who don’t share your beliefs? How did you find out about what they really think?

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August 15, 2011 · 9:00 am

The Deconversion Guide: Debates

This is the first post in a new series about the sticky situations you can get into after deconverting from Christianity. I’m hoping it will be useful for those who have recently deconverted as well as for theists who want to understand what life is like on the other side. 🙂

For new readers who don’t know my story, I was a preacher’s kid. My brothers and I grew up in a fairly sheltered home. One brother and I were home schooled by our stay-at-home mom for the first few years and our exposure to secular books and music was pretty limited. As a young adult I gradually deconverted and currently identify as Agnostic.

Today’s topic: debates.

As soon as it becomes widely know that you’re not (or no longer) a Christian there will be those who will want to argue religion with you.

Here are three things to consider as you decide whether or not to engage them:

1. Do you enjoy debating?

I don’t like it but I have friends who do! There are no right or wrong answers here. It’s as ok to love a fiercely friendly argument or correcting misconceptions about us as it is be ambivalent of or dislike this sort of thing.

Keep in mind, though, that you are not responsible for the stereotypes others believe about you. Taking the time to educate other people is great but it’s never something you’re obligated to do.

 2. What do you hope to accomplish?

Sometimes debates (on any topic) turn into this:

Keep your goal in mind as the conversation flows, though. It’s easy to get sidetracked by arguments that won’t actually change anyone’s mind or enrich the debate. This leads me to my last point…

 3. Why are you doing this?

Some people debate for the fun of it, others because they like the competition or want to convince the other person to switch beliefs.

None of these are bad reasons but a mismatch can sour a conversation (or even a friendship). Someone who debates for the fun of it could easily clash with someone who feels morally obligated to convert everyone else to his or her beliefs.

Respond

Non-theists: Have I missed anything? Is this something you do regularly?

Everyone:  Do you enjoy debating your beliefs with people who do not share them? If you like it at least occasionally how do you decide when to do it?

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May 12, 2011 · 9:00 am

Finding Community as a Nontheist

The best part about growing up as a preacher’s kid: community. Healthy churches can offer unconditional acceptance, warm friendships with people from a wide variety of backgrounds and as many free or inexpensive social events as you care to squeeze into your free time.

When I de-converted I missed these instant connections more than anything else. Yes, there are nonreligious groups out there that are dedicated to a wide variety of issues and pastimes. Gelling together a community is easier when the leaders are experienced and when everyone shares something important in common and while they are at no means the only ones able to do it many churches excel at figuring out how to quickly fold new people into their midst.

To further complicate the situation I don’t care about many subjects that are often discussed: sports, celebrity gossip, political debates, (most) contemporary music, fashion, or how, why, when and with whom other people are reproducing.

As I’ve mentioned before I’m also an introvert. My idea of a good time is a tranquil hiking or going out to dinner with a few close friends. I can enjoy larger groups but it takes a little time to prepare for that sort of socialization.

Because of all this it has taken me quite some time to build a new community. Slowly what Anne Shirley would call kindred spirits have trickled into my life. One day I’ll drag all of them out to dinner, finally meet the ones I’ve only known online in person and smile as they (hopefully) grow to like one another as much as I like them.

Another piece of the puzzle: Creative Copy Challenge. Ostensibly it’s a writing prompt blog but I’m beginning to go there because as much as I love writing a poem or short story in response to the new list of words twice a week I care about the people there more.

Originally my title for this post was How to Find Community as a Nontheist. The only problem with it is that I don’t have the answer sheet. All I know is what works for me.

What works for you?

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March 17, 2011 · 9:00 am

Life after Faith: Now What?

My process of de-converting from Christianity in one word: gradual. The earliest hairline doubts cracked through around puberty. I tried re-evaluating what I believed and living with the tension of beliefs that harmed more than they helped. Each patch seemed to work for a few years. And then one day I’d come back and find only the gummy residue of old hope.

Some former Christians who have become non-theists approach their de-conversions with glee. They’ll switch from evangelizing about Jesus to proselytizing the tongue-in-cheek virtues of the flying spaghetti monster.  There’s nothing wrong with doing this, of course. It just isn’t how I reacted when I finally admitted to living in the religious grey zone.

Beyond the relief that follows honesty after a long internal battle came a question:

Now What?

I’d grown up with the belief that faith brings meaning to one’s life and that people couldn’t be genuinely good without that external compass. It was something reinforced so often and with such authority that I didn’t even recognize it as an assumption until this point.

What was I going to do without it? Would I suddenly start drinking every weekend, lying, stealing, cheating, fighting, ignoring those who asked for help?

This may make those of you who didn’t grow up in this sort of religious environment chuckle…but they were things that passed through my mind. Over and over again as a child I heard testimonies from people who said that God was the only thing in this world standing between them and all of the horrible things they wanted to do.

What if I had just stepped away from this same protection?

It wasn’t something I worried about forever but it was in the back of my mind as I slowly inched into a new worldview.

What happens after faith? Most of the time it’s the same sort of stuff that mattered before in the smallest and biggest ways: the love of family and friends. a crisp new book from the library. a long hike in the woods.

I’m as (un)likely to harm or help someone else as I was in my Christian years. Worrying about my purpose in life isn’t something I do as much these days. If there is one I’ll figure it out when the time is right. In the meantime I’ll love and be loved and that isn’t a bad place to be.

Ex/non-theists and spiritual seekers, what is your “now what”? How do the pieces of your lives come together?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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